Overcoming Leadership Loneliness -40
Have you ever felt lonely as a leader? Leadership can be a lonely place sometimes, but it doesn't have to be. Join us this week for an inspiring and thought-provoking episode with creative coach Jen Jones Donatelli in an episode that redefines leadership and building community. This conversation covers the ethics and challenges of forming deep connections while maintaining professional boundaries, and the human need for belonging and community. Together we discuss the difference between being the 'sage on the stage' to being the 'guide on the side', making the case for genuine relational leadership. They also touch on overcoming fears, finding purpose in new environments, and how leaders can support their mental health. If you're intrigued by the balance of leading with empathy, maintaining authenticity, and finding your tribe, this episode is packed with invaluable insights. Tune in to discover how to overcome leadership loneliness and how to create safe and supportive spaces for growth and transformation
Jen's Bio:
Jen Jones Donatelli is a certified Co-Active coach (PCC-level), creative facilitator and founder of Creative Groove—a small business offering courses, coaching, and community around the art of creative living. Jen has also taught for schools and organizations including Loyola Marymount University, Ohio University, MediaBistro, StoryStudio Chicago, Literary Cleveland, and Chautauqua Institution. Prior to her work with Creative Groove, Jen worked in various forms of media and entertainment for nearly 20 years. Her resume spans feature films, award shows, talk shows, sitcoms, red carpet reporting, and print/online journalism for outlets including Glamour, REDBOOK, Business Insider, Playboy, Los Angeles Confidential and many more. Jen's work has taken her into the kitchens of Wolfgang Puck and Thomas Keller, hidden gems throughout California and Mexico, and even into Ozzy Osbourne’s bedroom. (True story!) She is a proud graduate of the E.W. Scripps School of Journalism at Ohio University.
Transcript
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Marli Williams [:Hey, everybody. What is happening? Welcome back to the podcast where this week I am hanging out with Jen Jones Donatelli. And she is a creative coach and facilitator, the founder of Creative Groove, and really helps people unleash and unlock their creativity in their life and in their business. And this week, we're really diving into the idea that leadership can sometimes be lonely. When you are the person who is facilitating, who's leading, who's guiding people in a community, an online course, an in person retreat, it can feel like you're on the outside. And so this week we're diving into the idea of what do we do as leaders when we feel lonely and how do we build and cultivate our own sense of connection and community and support system outside of the communities that we build. Because oftentimes, as leaders, as coaches, as entrepreneurs, we create the thing that we wish we had, like building a community or building a network. And we can feel really on the outside of that.
Marli Williams [:So this week is a deep dive into loneliness as a leader and just loneliness in general. How do we find and build meaningful connections and build community wherever we are on our leadership journey. So with that, cannot wait to dive into this amazing conversation with Jen. Let's do this. Hey, everyone. What's happening? I am super stoked to welcome you to the Marli Williams Podcast where we will explore authentic leadership, transformational facilitation, and how to create epic experiences for your audiences every single time. I am your host, Marli Williams, bringing you thought provoking insights, expert interviews, and actionable strategies to unlock your potential as a leader, facilitator, and speaker. Thank you for joining me on this journey of growth, transformation, and impact.
Marli Williams [:Let's lead together. The Marli Williams Podcast begins now. Let's dive in. Hey, everybody. What is happening? I'd love to welcome you back to the Marli Williams Podcast where this week, I am hanging out with Jen Jones Donatelli, who is a creative coach and facilitator and also the founder of Creative Groove. Welcome to the podcast, Jen.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Thanks, Marli. It's awesome to be here.
Marli Williams [:It's awesome to have you here. We got to connect a couple weeks ago in Cleveland where you live while I was speaking at an event, and you reached out and we got to connect and got to learn a little bit of around what you're up to in the creative space. But since you're new to this podcast crew, before we dive into our conversation today, I would love for you to share a little bit about who you are, what you do in the world, and what's lighting you up the most right now.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Oh, okay. Cool. You kind of covered it. I work as a creative coach and facilitator, and I'm also the founder of Creative Groove, which is a small business that offers you know, coaching programs, courses, community programming, all around creativity, self expression, visibility, pretty much anything to get people into their creative groove. So I always like to say, I help other people color outside the lines to find creative possibilities and solutions in their life and work. I've been doing this in some form for about 15 years, but I've been doing it full time for almost 2. I feel very fresh and new in some regards, and then I'm also very established in certain regards. So, it's been a really fun adventure.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Yeah. I guess that's what's lighting me up about it is there's always something new to learn, you know, new adventures to create, new opportunities to pursue. And even though I've been doing this a long time, I really feel like I'm just getting started.
Marli Williams [:I love that. And I I mean, I think one of the beautiful and challenging parts of entrepreneurship is the ongoing evolution that we go on as creatives and multi passionate people where, you know, our work shifts, our work grows, our work evolves, it expands, it contracts, it like it moves, it grooves. Right? Like, depending on I I think I love this question of, like, what's lighting you up the most right now because I think as entrepreneurs and solopreneurs, like, we get to make up the rules, meaning, like, we get to lean in to what lights us up and to do work that feels really soul filled and soul fueled so that we can be of service to people in the world. And and I think creativity has such an expansive space. It's like such a fun playground to play in, right, with people coloring outside the lines, thinking outside the box, being creative, whether it's designing a product, a course, a service. How do I step outside the norm and kind of find my own way in that? So I love that.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Yeah. I always like it being multipassionate or being a multipotentialite if you follow Emily Wapnick's work, but but I always liken it to almost like being a kid in a candy store.
Marli Williams [:Right.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:It's like you bring in all that energy and you do. You look at what lights you up and then you get to, you know, pursue those paths, and it's really exciting. There are points where boundaries and bandwidth come in, but for the most part.
Marli Williams [:Exactly.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:It's very fulfilling to be able to chart your own path in that way.
Marli Williams [:Yeah. I know that not everyone can see it because you're listening to the podcast, but Jen has a beautiful background with all of these stars and this big beautiful mural. And I think this idea of being multi passionate, what I think about it is like your unique constellation of experiences and all of the things that you've done that have, like, brought you to the work that you're doing and that all of it matters. Right? And it's all a part of who you are and, like, how you offer your magic to the world. It's like your unique constellation of your brand of magic, so to speak. So I love that. And for people out there, I think, who are entrepreneurs, who are multi passionate, there's like the niche and find your zone and do the one thing. And, like, there's literally a book called The One Thing.
Marli Williams [:Right? All these messages that say, just put it in a, like, nice little tight box so that everyone can understand what you do. Right? And and that can feel like it could be hard as someone who has a lot of different things and and not everything has to happen all at the same time either. And I think allowing our work to evolve as we evolve. So just wanted to, I guess, put that out there.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Yeah. And it's kind of interesting. I haven't really talked to you about this yet, but every year, one of my signature programs I do is called March Madness, and it's for entrepreneurs and just people, creatives, that tend to have too many ideas. Oh. And that's kinda where the action stops.
Marli Williams [:Right. So
Jen Jones Donatelli [:they're looking well Yeah. Exactly. And I definitely relate to that, which is one of the reasons I kinda conceived the program, you know, but so what we do is we kind of move out of idea paralysis into action by identifying the next right thing. And we do that through a bracket, like a March Madness style bracket where we write down all of our ideas, and then we work through our framework together to look at what's the low hanging fruit. You know, that you feel is your next right thing that you wanna it doesn't mean we're abandoning the other ideas. It doesn't mean that those don't get to have, you know, their airtime at some point, but what's right for you right now? And I think when you are multi passionate, it's important to be able to do that discernment process so that you're not having your energy scattered a 1,000 different ways, you
Marli Williams [:know? Yeah. So, yeah,
Jen Jones Donatelli [:I think there's a happy medium between the one thing and between being the kid in the candy store store, so to speak.
Marli Williams [:Exactly. Yeah. There's a balance. There's a sweet spot, right? Well, I'm excited to jam with you today on the idea of building community and being a community builder. Right? As a leader, as a coach who facilitate transformational experiences, whether that's online or in person, like leading and running communities. And one of the things that we really connected on was how lonely it can be when you are the one leading and building the community, but sometimes you feel like you're on the outside. Right? And I think that we tend to as entrepreneurs, we tend to create the thing we wish we had. Right? So we create this, like, I wanna create a community of of creatives, or I wanna create a community of, women entrepreneurs or whatever it is.
Marli Williams [:And then we create the community. We build the community. And then what ends up happening is that it can feel really lonely and isolating because we're the ones leading and facilitating that, but we're not actually in it with the people. And I wanted to jam with you on that that nuance and that challenge and how as leaders and especially solopreneurs, how we can find and nurture community because it might not be inside the community that we've built. It might be, but it also might be outside of it.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Yeah, that's interesting to think about what's your expectation going in, right? And how do we revisit that in a way that doesn't leave us disappointed or lonely?
Marli Williams [:Yeah. Yeah. So, like, I think sometimes that expectation is I want community, so I'm gonna build it, and then I'll be a part of it. And then everybody will love me, and then it'll be great. And I'll have so many friends.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Yeah. You're so right. I mean, it wasn't totally obvious to me, but I've always gravitated toward group coaching, group programs. Along with my work with Creative Group, I also lead a networking group in Cleveland that has over a 1000 women in it. And you're right. I think there's a driver beneath all that to create community, to cultivate community, but also, you know, if I'm honest to create it for myself, really.
Marli Williams [:Yeah. So what is your experience been in being that person to build and create and nurture and facilitate that community? Like, have you felt on the inside at times? Have you felt on the outside at times? Like, what was your expectation going into it, and what was the reality that ended up happening?
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Yeah. I think sometimes what happens when you lead an ongoing group or you lead an ongoing program, sometimes it takes a lot of life of its own. So for instance, you know, I've led, 12 week Artist Way cohorts for many years now. And often at the end, we're we're bonded. You know, like, we wanna stay connected. And so I watch people, they'll go off in their style starts their own writing groups or they'll, you know, meet for coffee or they'll make friendships out of it. And the same thing happens with my networking group. I hear from people a lot, you know, that they've met their best friend through it or, you know, weekly meetup group that meets and does networking.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:And that's such a thrill for me and such a testament because it's like, that's what I was going for. You know, that's what I wanted to create. But at times, you know, there can be pangs of wanting to be part of it, you know, and Right.
Marli Williams [:Feeling like left out.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Siloed feeling. Yeah. It's like the train's kinda, like, on the track now, but it's like you're watching it drive up and you're like, oh, like, I kinda wanted to be in the mix. You know? And so
Marli Williams [:And to be invited. I am a 7 on, like, the Enneagram, and it's like being invited is a really big value of mine and, like, being included. It's like I like to be invited. I like to be included. And when I'm left out, I have feelings about it. You know?
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Yeah. I do not know my Enneagram type. I do know that I'm a manifesting generator in human design.
Marli Williams [:Oh, nice.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:But there's a little bit of synchronicity here because this is the second time in a few days that it came up that I didn't know my Enneagram type.
Marli Williams [:Oh, okay. So maybe something I'll get to.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:I may be a 7 based on what you're saying because there is that deep longing, you know, to wanna be part of something.
Marli Williams [:Yeah. Well, I If you don't
Jen Jones Donatelli [:have it, it can stay.
Marli Williams [:Right. And I do believe as human beings, we are all craving something to believe in and belong to. And I think that for a long time, for and like, I think it is, just a human or human nature for a long time that was tribal communities. Maybe that was a religious community. Maybe it was a neighborhood community. Like there was like, there is something about that. And I think that because we live in more transient times and people leave their family of origin, they travel their they don't live where they grew up and maybe they aren't, you know, religious in nature or spiritual. Like, I think that there is this seeking that people have for connection, belonging, community of, like, I believe what you believe, and I want to be around people where I feel like I belong.
Marli Williams [:Right? Like, I believe in the value of creativity or I believe in the power of entrepreneurship or strong women or whatever it is. And, like, I am looking for, like, where are my people? Where do I fit? And I'll say one more thing because I just talked about belonging and the I think I I don't know if it was Brene Brown, but it was someone talking about the difference between belonging and fitting in. Yeah. And I think that this is so nuanced and important to address in this moment. The idea of fitting in is I have to give up something or become something that I'm not in order to be accepted by others, and that's fitting in. Whereas belonging belonging requires you to be who you are, not to give up who you are, but it really requires you to be who you are. And so and people want communities that where they can be all of who they are. And I think that, like, the programs and the group programs, like, that you create and, like, the retreats that I put together, it's like, I think people crave that space where they can be seen and heard and witnessed and have that sense of belonging of like, you get me, you see me at a deeper level.
Marli Williams [:Right? And so I just think when we're building these communities, it's like, yeah, what are people looking for? What are people craving? And again, as leaders, we tend to create the thing that we wish that we had. What are you hearing in your communities that people are looking for right now or what reflections or comments do you have about that?
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Yeah, well, what you said about the distinction between fitting and belonging. I mean, that's speaks to the essence of why I do what I do. Because it's a very common theme that comes up with my clients that they feel like they're trying to fit a mold or they're not letting their fruit flag fly, so to speak. Yeah. Like they're kind of like dimming down or playing small or, you know, insert coach idiom here. You know, like, for instance, I just had a retreat over the weekend. Yeah. And one of the participants was talking about she's out there on social media with her business, but she has kind of this buttoned up appearance on social media.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:And she wants to dye her hair purple. She wants to use profanity. Like, she wants to be out there, you know, but she's holding back because of how it might be perceived. And I think that's really common, especially as you move through your career and all those things. You don't wanna take those risks sometimes. So it's like, what does it look like to belong? You know, come as you are. Be a 110% you. Let the freak flag fly.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:You know? And, I think that's when you truly find your people.
Marli Williams [:Yeah. It's so true. And I think that it's it's a both and with, like, what is your level of self acceptance?
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Mhmm.
Marli Williams [:Right? In, like, I know myself well enough, and I feel like I belong anywhere. That's like but it's like I've had to cultivate that belief because I've walked into spaces being like, I don't belong here. I don't fit in here. This isn't my jam here. Right? But really getting to, you know, that that cultivating that strong sense of self awareness and not I think that that piece of self acceptance too, because, like, the more I accept myself, all of me, then I can show up as all of me. And instead of that fear of judgment from other people, like, what are they gonna think? What are they gonna say? What are they gonna do? And or, like, people expect me to be a certain way, dress a certain way. And I actually feel like I wanna wave my freak flag. Like, what are other people like, am I gonna be rejected or kicked out of the community? Which is like a very, very big fear, like and that is a fear response from, like, way back in the day when if we weren't a part of a community, we got killed by the saber tooth tiger.
Marli Williams [:Like, our sense of need it is a primitive need to to belong. And, you know, I think that it's like it's a both and. How can we strengthen our sense of self acceptance and find communities who accept us? Right? It's it's a bit of a it's a dance because I I have seen it where people enter in a community like that or an experience like that, and they have permission to wave their freak flag. And then they get to be loved and seen and celebrated and supported and lifted up. And they're like, what have I been waiting for? Why have I been holding this in, holding this back? It's like when I am all of me, I will find my people that are for me.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Yeah. And I know you, you know, ruminate on leadership a lot. You know, like leadership is your jam. And, I'm a certified coactive coach. And in the coactive model, we talk a lot about leadership. And the essence of the collective leadership model is this idea of being fully realized both in self acceptance and in self authority. Mhmm. Those are the 2 kind of buckets or wheelhouses we look at to grow in to become, you know, the most optimal leader that you can be.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Wow.
Marli Williams [:I love that. So that level
Jen Jones Donatelli [:You should check out the book. It's really good.
Marli Williams [:Self acceptance. I think I actually legit have it on my shelf. Coactive coaching. It's right there. I see it. I've, like, flipped through it. I haven't read it from cover to cover, but so this I I I can get self acceptance. It's like I'm accept all of me.
Marli Williams [:I'm curious what is self how do they define what self authority looks like, sounds like, feels like as a leader?
Jen Jones Donatelli [:That's a great question. And it's also a good reminder to return to the book because I don't know.
Marli Williams [:I'm like, should we go look it up? I have it over there on my shelf.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:What I think it is is really trusting yourself as a leader, not second guessing your leadership instincts, but being able to authoritatively make decisions for yourself as a leader, to trust yourself, to follow your gut, to follow your intuition, to be really rooted in who you are as a leader, and to act from that place.
Marli Williams [:Yeah. I love that. It it reminds me a little bit. I heard a definition around charisma was
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Riz, as the kids would say? The
Marli Williams [:what are they calling it?
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Oh, like the, you know, the TikTokers call it Riz. Riz.
Marli Williams [:Okay. That's what you knew. You guys are good. I'm learning. Get Riz. Right? We got that charisma is this idea of being, like, friendly and approachable, but also having credibility.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Mhmm.
Marli Williams [:I don't know. It's like the words that come to mind are because I like c words is like compassion for self and others and also having credibility, like, that that authority of, like, I know who I am. I know my strengths. I know what I have to offer, and I'm so that idea of charisma, it's like, oh, I trust you. You know, when you think about, like, Michelle and Barack. Right? They just rocked the DNC a couple days ago, and I feel like they they're a great example of that. There's, like, some level of warmth, familiarity, the way that they speak, but it's also like, wow. I really trust you because you know what you're talking about.
Marli Williams [:You're thoughtful. You're articulate. Like, you're trustworthy, but you also have charisma because we know people that, like, can light up a room and are super friendly, but you're like, do they actually know what they're talking about? And then we have people that are super, maybe, in their, know what they're talking about? And then we have people that are super maybe in their authority or, like, credible, so to speak, but don't have the warmth.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Yeah. It's almost like a Venn diagram, and it's that sweet spot where they all meet.
Marli Williams [:Yeah, then it all comes together. So I love that so much.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:But actually it's bringing up something for me around the topic we were talking about, which is kind of like sometimes when you're the leader of a group or you're facilitating a group, people think you have it all figured out. You know, and like they're on the other side of figuring it out. So they're like, oh, like we're on different levels or different playing fields or that kind of thing. And that's why it's actually really important to me often when I lead groups or when I facilitate. I'm very transparent about the fact that I'm usually on this journey with them.
Marli Williams [:Mhmm. You
Jen Jones Donatelli [:know? And that's part of being coactive too. It's like almost like peer to peer rather than like, I'm gonna tell you how to live your life or I have all the answers because that's not true. Right. You know? But also, I think that could be a perception of people coming into a group coaching program or into a retreat or that kind of thing that, you know, you've got all the answers. You've gotta figure it out. You're like on your own zone, you know? And and so I think that can lead sometimes to the the divide as well.
Marli Williams [:And I think there's, like, such this nuance balance because I think, well, people are signing up for the program or the retreat because they trust you, that you're like at least, like, a few steps ahead and that they trust that you can help them. Right? And yet how do we not have them or put ourselves on a pedestal or them put us on a pedestal? Like, we have it all figured out. And the difference between that sage on the stage model of, like, I have all the answers and, like, the guru, like, listen to me, and everything I say is, like, the truth versus the guide on the side where, like, I haven't heard that
Jen Jones Donatelli [:one before.
Marli Williams [:Yeah. So the sage on the stage versus the guide on the side of, like, I'm here. And when I think about climbing a mountain, let's say, a metaphor of, like, do you want someone who's at the top of the mountain shouting down at you at the bottom being like, you can do and, like, they're already at the top, or do you want someone who's a couple steps ahead on the trail? They got snacks. They got a 1st aid kit. They're taking pictures. You're having a good time. You're having a conversation, but they know where to go because they've been there already. And so what would you rather have? And and I think that that can create, like you said, what we're talking about of, like, how lonely leadership can be.
Marli Williams [:It can create this divide. And I've been on both ends of the spectrum. Like, I've been to I've joined a mastermind and gone to a retreat where the coach was, like, nowhere to be found other than being on stage.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Mhmm.
Marli Williams [:Like, they are, like, create this level of inaccessibility unless they're in power and in control. So there wasn't this level of connection. And that's just as a leader, that and a coach, like, that's not my jam. Like, my jam is, like, I'm with the people, and I am who I am when I'm on stage or at dinner or, like, you know, when you're on a retreat, there is an element, like, I have to take care of myself. I have to get good rest and good sleep and go for my morning walk or meditate, whatever, but I'm all in. And I was a wilderness guide for 21 days at a time, so I'm like, 6 days in Mexico? I got this. Like, I can be on. I'm extroverted.
Marli Williams [:That fills me up. I know that different people need different, like, levels of energy, but, like, I feel like there are moments in my communities, like, in my experiences where I really do feel like I'm a part of it, but I'm always paying attention to the group dynamic, to the energy. Is everyone connecting? How are people feeling with the vibe? Are there clicks happening? Right? Like, it's like, I can be in it, but I'm never, like, not looking at the holistic experience for every single person because that's my job. Right? And so, like, there always is like a
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Yeah. The collective energy, the collective experience.
Marli Williams [:Right. And making sure that I'm aware of that energy and aware of what's going on. And, you know, checking in individually with people, checking in with the group, where are we at, what does the group need. And I think it's like, what is that dance, right, between being kind of in the community and then guiding and leading and facilitating so that there is this, like, level of, like, I trust your ability to hold this container. Because I've also seen people, like, get into the drama of a community or, like, get sucked in almost as a participant, and then you lose trust, you lose safety within that group because, like, they're like, I don't feel safe here because of there's, like, whatever. People are talking and there's gossip and there's this happening and there's that happening. So I'd love to explore, like, how do we find our sweet spot as leaders in this dance of building this these communities, wanting to belong to these communities, but also, like, these people are a part of it because they trust us to, like, lead them?
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Yeah. It's almost like you need to have your own code of ethics or rules of the road around. You know, how do you wanna be, you know, as a leader and as someone who's integrated with your community. But like you said, in a way that serves the community instead of serves yourself really.
Marli Williams [:Right, Yeah. And so it's like, I think that that is such a great prompt to give people, like anyone out there leading a community, like, what are your kind of guidelines as a leader? And, you know, it is interesting. Like, it's different. I think it's like we're leading a free community where it's a meetup and people are showing up or it's like a paid coaching program or a retreat. Right? Like, there's like all these different, like, levels of investments that people might make time investment, mon monetary investment, but, like, when does it go into, like, you know, people will come to my retreat and then, like, we'll become friends or, like, a coaching client who is a friend and then becomes a client or a client who becomes a friend or write like what are your own personal guidelines or boundaries to, like, ensure the safety of the collective experience?
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Yeah. And it's funny because, like, in my customer journey or client journey, I've found that, people will often do my program more than once or they'll do other programs with me. So we do form relationships, you know, and they are friendships to some degree. You know, I look at these people as friends. I care about them. I think about them, you know, even if I'm not seeing them every week in a program anymore, but they matter to me. They're not just dollar signs. Right.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:You know? And so, I really do consider it a community. And, sorry, I forgot what your question was. But, yeah, you do form meaningful connections with people. And so it's like, how do you treat those ethically with consideration? Right. And, just keep those really juicy connections, but also, like, keep your business running on all cylinders too.
Marli Williams [:Right. Because I think sometimes those lines can get fuzzy where someone becomes a friend and then every time you have coffee, it turns into like a coaching conversation.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Oh, okay. I haven't like too much of that like a week.
Marli Williams [:This is like, you know, where where where that line is or, you know, and I had some good friends join one of my masterminds and we had a conversation of, like, our friendship comes first. You know, I want to support you. Obviously, I want the best for you. I'm here for you. And just to like have an open conversation, if anything feels off that, like we can bring that up to bring that to the table. But yeah, because the work that we do is intimate and it does build like these really intentional, meaningful connections and figuring out for you as a coach or a leader, like what feels like it's integrity and integrity for you, you know, and how you approach that and navigate that. Right?
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Yeah. And I I myself have had to do some work around. There are people, you know, that I've developed these what should we call it? Like, friendship I don't know. I don't know what we would call it, but
Marli Williams [:these relationships
Jen Jones Donatelli [:with. And I have to keep myself in check. For instance, the retreat I just had this weekend, there were 2 people who got sick. And one of them was someone who's been my 1 on 1 client. She's taken my artist weight class twice. She's done a lot with me. And I felt terrible that she was sick and she couldn't make it. And my my immediate instinct was to wanna offer her a refund, even though it was the day of the retreat and I already, you know, kinda allocated all the resources.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:And so that people pleasing side of me, you know, wanting to take care of people that I know and love, you know, it's hard because it's like, okay, how do you abide by your policies? You know, while not wanting while also having that kind of desire to wanna take care of your people too. Right.
Marli Williams [:Yeah. It's like, what is that again? It's it's leadership is nuanced. It can be challenged. Like those are the challenges of being a leader and choosing to be in a leadership role where like a lot of people don't want that level of responsibility. Right. And I think that that's why sometimes it does feel lonely. Because we still have to, like, be the one maybe to, like, hold people accountable or, you know, like, hold the boundary and kind of be, again, maybe on the feel like we're on the outside. And I think for me, it's been really, really important to shift my own expectations of like, I might not build my community inside of these spaces that I'm facilitating and curating and to be thoughtful and intentional with finding that in my personal development and my professional development.
Marli Williams [:Like I'm in a community of other facilitators where I can learn and grow and level up my skills and I'm meeting people that are further along than me or who inspire me, or like I have friends in just like other arenas in my life where I have that support system and I'm not relying on these communities I'm facilitating or building to be my support system. Right? And having that in other places, I think, is really, really valuable. And I think, again, it's managing that expectation, knowing that we tend to, again, create the thing that we wish that we had. So it's like, oh, look at this amazing community I created. Why don't I feel like I'm a part of it?
Jen Jones Donatelli [:You're so right. And I I know we were talking about this earlier, but I lived in California for 17 years, and I moved back to the Midwest 6 years ago. And so it was kinda like starting over in a way. And so a lot of the people I met early on were people that were coming through my classes, through my communities, through my coaching programs. You know? And I do have a special place in my heart because I feel like I found a sense of purpose and found those, like, close ties with people through the programs I was doing. But you're right. It's like sometimes you have to really look at what's driving me here. What are my deepest desires and longings? You know? And I realized that I do need community and friendship.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Those are some of my top values. And like you said, it's really important to make sure that you're kind of feeding and fueling those parts of yourselves, you know, outside of your work so
Jen Jones Donatelli [:that you can kind of, like, keep those lines clearly drawn.
Marli Williams [:Right. Yeah. I think that that's so important. Like, we all need that, and I think we all crave that. And one of the things that you talked about too is and people bring this up often is as adults, whether you, like, move somewhere recently or you're just like, where do I find community? Where do I meet people? How do I make these connections? And I think for me, it's been seeking people who, again, like, are in a similar space that I'm in. Right? Like, around I'm like, I wanna geek out with facilitators. Like, that's my jam. And so I joined a community of other facilitators.
Marli Williams [:Right? And that's an online community, but I also know that I need in person community. So it's like, I play pickleball once a week and I've like met some amazing people through that or right. So there's just, I think figuring out beyond like, where do we go? And I think, you know, whether that's going to events, going to conferences, doing personal development, because that's my jam. But it's like figuring out, like, well, what's your jam? Is it like going to yoga class? And then, like, do you show up early? Do you stay a little bit late? Do you say hi to the person on next to you, or do you just, like, kinda come in and come out? Or if you're going to the same coffee shop every day, or to join a co working space if you're a solopreneur. So it's like, what are some maybe we can brainstorm some creative ways that if you're out there in the world, you're feeling lonely, whether you're a leader of a community, whether you move to a new city, whether you're just like, I wanna make some new friends. Let's give him some hot tips, Jen. What are some of the things that you did when you moved to Cleveland or yeah. What have you done to meet people?
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Yeah. And it's funny. I mean, you're hitting on all some great points. It's like my coworking space is definitely a lifeline for me. I noticed that I get more done when I go there. I love being privy to the the cool things that other people are up to in the world. Even the space itself, aesthetically, you know, inspires me.
Marli Williams [:Right.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:And so it I don't know about you. I I'm sensing that you're someone who's deeply affected by energy.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Mhmm. And same here. So, like, if I'm around and that actually during COVID was a big takeaway for me because my battery was at 0 throughout most of COVID. And it hit me one day. I said, the reason is because I'm not around people. It was a huge moment. Like, I've realized I'm an extrovert to the extreme. You know, I need that kind of collective energy like we spoke about.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:And, just side note, we were talking about the collective leadership model before. There's different forms of leaders. 1 of them is a leader in the field. And by field, we're talking about the energetic field. So that ability to read the room or sense the energy, That's a huge strength as a leader, but also it it kind of points us to the spaces we need to be in as people. So for me, it's like going to my co working space, going to networking events, finding interesting parties, events, experiences to be part of so I can meet new people and kind of experience that energetic dopamine boost, you know? Yeah. And there may be people listening to this that do not relate to that at all or or introverts, but are still craving those same things. So this isn't necessarily one size fits all.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Mhmm. You know?
Marli Williams [:Yeah. But And it's not always like quantity over quality. I mean, it's like you might wanna just build like 2 to 3 meaningful friendships with people like, who are my airport people? Like, who's gonna take me to the airport or who's gonna bring me soup when I'm sick? And so it's not about like more is necessarily better, but it's just like, I had to really sit down and be like, what are the types of connections that I wanna make? And I wanted more meaning and more depth. And so that meant I would go to all these group things. But my follow-up kind of sucked. To be honest. Like, I love the energy of the group, but it's like and instead of feeling like I had to go in and meet everybody, my new mission was to make one meaningful connection, to take that pressure off. And there is like, I think that we are all intuitive and very energetic and we don't give ourselves credit for that.
Marli Williams [:I always say pay you know, if you walk into a room, even if it's like at a yoga class, you know, out when you're at a concert or you go to a networking event, pay attention to who captures your attention. There is a reason for it, but it's an energy thing. Like, you know, maybe people are, you know, like, oh, there's something about that person. I'm gonna go say hi to them. I don't know what it is, but, like, lean into that. And again, give take the pressure off of, like, I have to meet every single person in here and walk away with 20 business cards that I'm never gonna do anything with versus, like, I'm gonna have 1, maybe 2 thoughtful, meaningful connections or conversations with someone I'm actually gonna meet up with for coffee or go for a walk with, or, and so it is, I always say friends are in the follow-up, right? We can make a connection, but to be brave enough to reach out. And I think that even if you're not a 7, I think we all like to be invited. We all like to be thought of.
Marli Williams [:We all like to be included. And so like, Hey, so and so awesome to meet you at that event. Would you like to get coffee in the next 2 weeks? Let me know the best times and days that work for you. Or maybe I say, here are some days and times that work for me. Let me know what works or whatever. So and I think that we have the story that introverts don't need or want connection. I just think it happens differently for them and walking into a room with a bunch of people they don't know could be really intimidating. So maybe you go with a friend or you go to something that's more facilitated or things like that where it makes it easier for you to connect.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Yeah. I love what you said about kind of noticing where you're drawn and honoring that. I believe deeply in synchronicity and so it's like follow those, you know, inner instinct signs. I remember I was in a coach training about 5 years ago and I was kind of playing this game when I was bored at one point. I was looking around like, Okay, in this room, you know, like, who would I wanna hang out with the most? And I barely knew these people. But there were 2 people I landed on. And 1, I just kind of introduced myself to her on the break, and we ended up spending every meal together. And we're still really close.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:We've supported each other through our journey of certification as coaches. But again, it was just kind of that like that gut check of like we seem like we would vibe. I don't know why it is. It just it just feels that way, you know, and then following those breadcrumbs toward your people.
Marli Williams [:A 100%. You know, and I again, like whether you're a leader or you just feel lonely, I think we all again, we wanna belong and we wanna connect. And so, you know, can we be brave enough to put ourselves out there to make the request, to make the ask, to notice who we notice and follow through and follow-up on that?
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Yeah. And you're kind of bringing me back to the freak flag. And I always I don't know if you remember this show. It was probably like 15, 16 years ago at this point, but there was a show on VH 1 called I think it was called the mystery method.
Marli Williams [:Uh-huh.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:And it was it was a dating show. It was like this dating coach guy. And one of his tips that he would give people was to peacock, which is basically wearing a piece of flare or wearing something interesting
Marli Williams [:or having something that's memorable.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Yeah. Some sort of conversation piece that's gonna spark conversation or have people talk to you, but that kind of brings me back to what we were talking to before about if you wanna have that pink streak in your hair, you know, if you wanna dopa bean dress and, like, wear the flamboyant outfit, whatever it is. But it's like when you summon up the courage to do those things, you're signaling, you know, to your people and they're gonna be drawn to you in that way. So sometimes it takes that bravery to be all of you and take those risks. And then you you might be surprised at what comes back from it.
Marli Williams [:100%. I like to say, you know, to be magnetic magnets do 2 things. They attract and they repel.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Yes. Yes.
Marli Williams [:So I think the other thing is, like, you do not have to be for everyone. You do not have to be for everyone, and not everyone has to be for you either. I would say, like That's something great. I'm not everyone's jam. Some people like raspberry. Some people like strawberries. Some people like mix, whatever. Or like, I'm not everyone's cup of tea, but I am someone's cup of coffee.
Marli Williams [:And that is important. Right? So I think it's like giving ourself permission to be all of who we are. And and I think in the leadership space, I think people are craving authenticity, realness, rawness, authenticity. I think I just said that twice. But transparency to be real, to be raw, to be who you are. And that looks like not just showing like our open flesh wounds
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Mhmm.
Marli Williams [:Like balling and, you know, but it's like to be true to ourselves and to show up honestly and authentically with that integrity. And people, people can feel that. You know, we can feel when someone's trying to be fake and a fraud and putting on a mask or a front, and we can feel people's realness. And when you're real, you give other people around you permission to do the same. So I think that's the gift that we can give people as leaders is no one wants to be told what to do. They just want a model of what's possible for them. So how can we be the model for them? How can we role model the behavior we wanna see for leading communities? How are we leading that? How are we being, you know, the host of that community and a host? You know, when people come over to your house and you're hosting them, you welcome them in, maybe you offer them a snack or a beverage, maybe you introduce them to someone they don't know. Right? Like, what are all these things that we can do as leaders to really help bring people in and make it easier for them to create that connection and belonging? Right? Because people might come into your community for the content, but they stay for the community.
Marli Williams [:So true.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:And one of the guiding, you know, phrases I live by really, but also it's the center point of my work is I think it was Maya Angelou who said, you know, people won't remember what you said or did, but they'll remember how you made them feel. And that's really important to me. Like, do they feel safe? Do they feel supported? Did they have fun? Did they feel like they could open up and be real and raw, you know, or just be themselves even? So having that comfort, is something that's so important for me to to give, you know, my clients and participants. And so
Marli Williams [:so true.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:That's the biggest gift I think we can give as leaders.
Marli Williams [:A 100%. Needing that space. So I love that. As we wrap up for today, I would love 2 final questions. Any final thoughts, lasting thoughts you'd like to leave our folks with today? And where can people find you, your work in the world, learn more about you?
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Well, yeah, I think the last thought I would give kind of harkens back to why we're even having this conversation, which is like making the ask of people you find interesting or opportunities that you wanna create for yourself. It's like Marli and I met in a Facebook group probably, I don't know, 6 months ago or something like that. And, you posted about your podcast, and I started listening to it. And I was like, I joke, I'm like, every time I listen to your podcast, I find myself just like nodding like, yeah, yeah. It's like the head nod, you know? And so I wanna reach out, you know? And so I did. And you never heard of me, didn't know me, but, we ended up connecting. And I think, yeah, it's like what you were talking about before. Like, notice where your energy is being drawn, whom you're being drawn to, but then taking that extra step to forge a connection or see, you know, are there ways we can collaborate, connect, have a conversation, get to know each other, and then just see what it sparks from there.
Marli Williams [:I love that. Make the ask. Be brave. Put yourself out there.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Yeah. Especially in our world where a lot of people form business partnerships through people they've met on Instagram. Like, there's so many different ways for us to connect dots and, you know, like you said, like, kind of like spark our constellations, so to speak. And so, why not plug into that and take advantage of it?
Marli Williams [:So good. I love that.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Yeah. And as far as how to find me, speaking of Instagram, I'd love to connect. My handle there is your creative groove and my website is creativegroove.com. So, and if you wanna email me, you can email me at Jen, jencreativegroove.com. So I'd love to connect with any of your listeners or people who just maybe want to riff a little bit on some of these topics or, get to know each other better. That'd be great.
Marli Williams [:I love that. So good. Well, I really appreciate you sharing your love, your heart, your energy, your creativity. Thank you for being brave and for reaching out to me. And this is the thing. You never know where it's gonna lead. Right? You have an amazing experience together in Cleveland. You're on the podcast.
Marli Williams [:We don't know where it's gonna go from here, but I always think the universe rewards our bravery. So where can you be more brave and bold in building and nurturing the connections and community that you crave? And as always, I love to hear your golden nuggets, what landed for you, what resonated with you. Feel free to send me a message on Instagram. Share this with a friend if you think that they could find value in it. And thank you again, Jen, for sharing your love and your heart with us today. And thanks everybody out there for listening, for tuning in, and wait to see you next time. Alright. Until then, take care.
Jen Jones Donatelli [:Thanks, Marli.
Marli Williams [:Thank you for joining us on another inspiring episode of the Marli Williams Podcast. We hope you're leaving here with renewed energy and valuable insights to fuel your leadership, coaching, and speaking endeavors. I'd love to invite you to subscribe, rate, and review this podcast to help us reach more aspiring leaders and speakers like you. We have more exciting episodes and remarkable guests lined up, so make sure to tune in next time. Until then, keep leading with purpose, coaching with heart, and speaking with conviction. This is Marli Williams signing off. See you next week.
